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CAIRO, Feb. 14—Following are excerpts front an inter view with President Gamal Abdel Nasser that the united Arab Republic carried out in English Friday night by James Reston, a vice presi dent the The brand-new York Times, in the presence of Mohammed Hassanein Heykal, cook edi tor the Al Ahram, in ~ the Presi dent's residence here:
Q. Space there any type of modest actions that could be taken short of a permanent cease fire to rest the present diplomatic deadlock in between you and Israel? because that example, you are on the verge of a spiritual holiday. Would certainly it it is in feasible to make a start with a short-lived cease‐fire during spiritual holidays one both sides?
A. This would certainly be 2 or three days? I'll phone call you part thing: There to be no cease fire after ~ the defense Coun cil resolution. There to be a cease‐fire from ours side, however no cease‐fire indigenous the various other side.
I have proof of ghat: the cities of Suez and also Ismailia, we were no at that time in a situation to Answer, but every day there to be bombing and shooting. Numerous civilians were killed. What taken place yesterday in Cairo
Q. Might you explain your strong objections to straight negotiations through Israel. The United states doesn't recog nize China however negotiates through its civilization in Warsaw. What's the distinction in her situation?
A. Really ns think over there is a huge difference. I don't think you accounting a part of China, or China a part of the joined States, but Israel inhabited 20 every cent of our territory, about 70 per cent of Jordani one territory, and around 10 per cent the Syrian territory. For this reason if us sit in ~ this table through Israel> no it will certainly be table that of capitulation. This method we would certainly accept uncondi tional surrender.
On the other hand, over there is nothing in the security Council resolution
Views on Rhodes Formula
Q: So ns gather that the Rhodes formula because that talks through the Israelis is no ac ceptable to you?
Answer: friend know, for two years Jarring
We declared all our views about that, Jordan proclaimed all her views around that, Israel refused. Lock said, We want to sit through the Arabs and also talk and we room not ready to say anything around our plans.
On the contrary, they claimed in their statements indigenous the prime Minister, the Deputy prime Minister, the Minister of Defense that they desire a greater, enlarge Israel. Castle de cided to sign up with Jerusalem. Castle talked around joining other parts from Syria indigenous Jor dan, and Egypt. So we look come the Israelis with skepticism and much more than that. We room sure they want expansion.
You know, they space a coun try without borders. They claimed that they have no bor ders and we want to negoti ate around our borders. What is the an interpretation of that? This means expansion. This method that they want to add territo ries that other countries to their land. Castle talk about the following generation make the real borders of Israel.
Q. Once you involved pow er you came as a young rev olutionary with plans come modernize your country and you hope to proceed that revolution. Is this battle an obstruction or is it a advantage to the revolution?
A. Really, that is no a bene fit. In ~ the beginning, us con centrated every our sources on building up ours country and also there to be no plans around bringing an ext arms to the army. I acquired assurances indigenous the American administrate ment and the British administrate ment the wei must have actually se curity and also there would certainly be no aggression, by Israel against us. I was able to convince the army about that. Batt sud denly in 1955, there were aggressions versus Gaza. Countless of ours soldiers were killed. This to be the begin ning in between the Israelis and after the revolution.
Of course, after ~ the aggres sion came the need of having actually arms. You understand the story. Brother refused, America re fused and then we obtained arms indigenous the Soviet Union.
Q. Where carry out you think things went wrong? when you started your change there was lot sympathy for her objectives, in the unified States and the rest of the West, and somehow this loitered down right into misunder standing and also worse. What's your view around what was responsible for that?
A. I am informing you part thing: The intention of the Israelis indigenous the beginning was to create misunderstand ing between Egypt and the united States. You know, in the start of 1955 us were in a very good relation. Then came this question of the attack by the Israelis and we asked about arms. Us were promised eight from the United says Government, but there to be pressures against the united States and also we were unable to obtain arms either from the joined King dom.
Then, of course, us were feeling that we were in a mess due to the fact that the Israelis were solid and us were needing arms. Climate carne the people‐ in this nation to start fires in American prop erties, cinemas and also so on, till we arrested one of them and he confessed he came from Israel in order come cre ate misunderstanding between the united States and Egypt.
Then us were subjected to an ext aggression from the Israelis and also the army was questioning for arms, and I'll call you that in a change by the army, the an initial thing peo ple think that is arms. Us didn't get any type of arms until 1955. Then we got in touch through the Soviet Union, and you understand the remainder of it. We acquired arms native the Soviet Union, so this to be the start ning the the misunderstanding with the joined States.
Q. In your watch was this misunderstanding purposeful top top the part of the joined States? after all, you had actually long associations with Jeffer child Caffrey, Hank Byroade and also other American Ambas sadors, consisting of Luke Battle.
Did you acquire the impression that the United claims really does have actually imperialist ambi tions to regulate or overcome this component of the world‐through Israel?
A. You know, at the begin ning castle tried to conquer this component of the human being direct ly. You know, ns was inquiry by the United claims Ambassa dor simply not to try to to speak anything about the area yet mind our very own affairs. One cannot isolate Egypt, i told him, indigenous what is walking on roughly here, and also of course, this was the start of the Baghdad Pact. I stated we would certainly not agree about the Baghdad Pact.
So lock tried to regulate us in the united States, in coop eration with Britain, and they tried additionally to regulate the area.
This to be clear in Mr. Eden's statement prior to Parli ament after the signature of the Baghdad Pact that us
Statement on Oil
Q. In the communiqué friend issued the various other day after the Arab summit conference here, there was an indication in ~ the finish that continued pres ence of the American oil suppliers was one indirect way by i m sorry the United states could continue financ ing this war with Israel versus you. What was the an interpretation of that?
A. Well, really, one would have to ask self the ques tion: Israel was able to win the battle of '67. Israel was able to ruin all the Arab air forces, one of two people the Syrian, the Jordanian or the Egyp tian. And also Israel claimed that they lost only a couple of planes. For this reason they were with air su premacy over the entirety area, and it was asserted after the war that Israel had two or three pilots for each airplane.
Then we tried to rebuild our armed forces by gaining the same varieties of airplanes us were utilizing before, one of two people MIG‐17's or 21's. It's renowned that the MIG‐21 has actually a an extremely short range and additionally the MIG‐17. So these MTG's are famed as protective weapons, not offensive.
Well, what occurred after the was the approval that the joined States federal government to offer Israel 50 Phantom, wait planes and around 100 skies hawks. The Phantom plane can carry about seven lots of bombs and also it is it long variety plane which deserve to reach any component of ours country. One has to ask himself a question: Why go the United states agree to provide such tools to Israel, once the Israelis were in a place of wait su periority?
U. S. Motives Questioned
The prize is that these weapons were provided to it is in used against us in attack action, against our military formations and against our industrial buildings, and versus our civil population. What happened in the Israeli raid exterior Cairo yesterday is just one of these examples. This weapons space not to defend Israel versus aggres sion, however to give Israel the power to force us to expropriate what the United states wants. What walk the United says want?
Q. Ns think the United claims wants tranquility in the area—I candid do. Ns agree over there is a difference to be made be tween the Phantoms and also Sky hawks, through their better speed and selection and carrying power, and also the MIG‐17's and also 21's, but after all, you have actually been make the efforts to acquire MIG‐23's indigenous the Russians, and you have actually not to be able to obtain them, have actually you?
A. I did not try to gain the MIG‐2's until two months ago. And also the 23's aret not prefer the Phantoms since the Phantom is a fighter‐bomber and the MIG‐23 is one inter ceptor, no a fighter‐bomber.
Q. What alters would you suppose iii the American aide mémoire ~ above Egypt in stimulate to do it an ext negoti able—the one the proposes the withdrawal of Israeli pressures from all occupied terri tory other than for particular ne gotiated protection arrange ments?
A. Well, you know, you claimed that the United states wants only peace. I desire to discuss that. The United claims does whe the Israelis say. The Israelis say they want straight negotiations through the Arab states. That's what the unified States has said.
The unified States has said it desires to negotiate secure and recognized boundaries. That's what the Israelis stated too. The United states wants to watch negotiated agreements around the Gulf that Aqaba.
That's what the Israelis have actually said. For this reason answering her ques tion, ns don't think that the joined States file was the same with the defense Council resolution. We agreed to the protection Council reso lution. We believed it was a well balanced resolution.
In the defense Council resolution something was said about withdrawal. Climate an various other phrase around peace: Each nation has the ideal to live, and so on, all what is well known: The recognition of all the nations in the area. Then there was an additional thing around navigation, free dom of navigation, and also some thing about the refugees. So it is balanced. Yet the Ameri can proposal is not well balanced like that. We don't think this a great resolution, however that is what the Israelis want.
Q. If the is true, why do you think the Jewish organi zations in the United claims were therefore upset around the American proposals and the Rogers speech? Why would certainly they have actually done the if the State room was offering Israel everything it wanted?
A. Well, friend know, be tween the Israelis there room some differences. Some of them want a particular piece that land, others desire a bigger piece of land, some world want to include all the occupied territories come Israel. And also I think plenty of of the Israelis and also many that the Jews desire to include all the populated terri tories, that is come say, come have all of old Palestine, component of Egypt, part of Syria.
That's really why there were together differences. And also don't think that would be the finish if lock joined every these parts. Within the following 10 year they will have an ext parts since their plans room well known.
Q. Is the military escala tion, especially these waiting strikes, developing emotions in Egypt which provides it more an overwhelming for you come make peace or less complicated for you come make: peace?
Always Favored Peace
A. Well, really the ques tion is not that. Indigenous the beginning I was always for peace, but what is peace? This is something about which everybody has actually his own opinion and interpretation. Once I was reading your interview through Mrs. Meir, she to be speaking plenty of times around peace. She called you that we assaulted Israel three times. Well, really, what is peace?
I want not to answer this question. I want to speak something. Why did this trouble go on because that 20 years? Nobody asked this question. After ~ the 1949 agreement, what happened? Mrs. Meir said that castle were struck by the Arabs in 1948. She told you the there was a Jewish state and another Arab state and the Israelis to be attacked, and this is no true. Well, you deserve to have the records. Prior to the com plete evacuation the the Brit ish troops from, Palestine, the Jews assaulted the Arab state—which was referred to as the Arab state follow to the partition setup — occupied numerous cities, lived in Jaffa. Then as soon as Mrs. Meir says that the Arabs attacked, I'm i m really sorry to say the this is not true.
She told you that Israel was attacked in '56. There was no comment indigenous you, think it is clean to everybody the the aggression the '56 was not from our side. There was a plot between Britain, France, and Israel. Therefore in '56 Israel to be not affiliated at every in the Suez Canal affair, yet she i agreeed to it is in a cat's paw for Britain and also France.
Well, in '67, the entirety question is nearer. Why walk this problem proceed for 20 years? after ~ the Rhodes agreement, there to be a resolution native the Secu rity Council about the refu gees, to go back to their residence land, and to have compensa tion. And then over there was agreement to have a concili ation committee, which was created from the united State, France, and Turkey, to lug the Arabs and also the Is raelis together to agree around the borders. There was a meeting at Lausanne yet then the Israelis left Lausanne and this to be the an initial and the last meeting of this committee.
No solution on Refugees
Then what came after that was that more than one mil lion Arabs were driven out of their homeland, deprived of their property, deprived of everything. Israel refuse to carry out the resolution of the united Nations around the refugees. So the Arabs claimed that in order to have any kind of agreement there have to be a just solution about the ref ugees, but there was no therefore lution.
Now I'll tell girlfriend something: castle speak about peace however neglect totally the Pales tinians. If the difficulty of the Palestinians, of the refugees, is not solved, there will certainly be no peace. This is the main question or peace. Ns realize that when Mrs. Meir to be talking through you, she neg lected fully the Pales tinians. Where were the Pal estinians from '48 until '67? fine the Palestipians to be there.
If we desire peace, well, there will be a clear and also just basis because that peace, and this is the resolution that the security Council, finish withdrawal indigenous the occupied territories, consisting of Jerusalem, then, a just solution because that the refu gees, and after that, there will be no problem.
Q. Allow me go back to the war situation. How much suf fering and also destruction do you think the civilization will tolerate in this nation for the services of this formula?
A. Really, that is not for the services of the formula. That is because that the sake of justice, because that the services of your rights, it is because that the services of not being humili ated. Girlfriend know, over there were countless ways the humiliation in your interview with Mrs. Meir. You know what she of fered Egypt defeat, Nasser is weak, why have to we heed him, and many words like that.
Our world here, really have their experiences: We have lived right here for an ext than 7,000 years: civilization‐old Egyptian civilization. It has withstood countless invaders. Currently we are invading the brand-new invaders, the Israelis. So it is our independence, and also it is likewise our dignity.
I will tell you something. The endurance the this coun try, this civilization is really great, and also whatever difficulties they face, they insist on. The is no a inquiry of formulas.
Q. Few of my colleagues were commenting critical night around how calmly the Egyp tian civilization accepted the bombers top top the edge of the city and were speculating about whether this come from the character of the people, native fatalism, reli gion, or what?
A. It is your history. Once I speak that history, ns don't speak about history books. In every male there is some thing from his father, grand father. This is yes, really the characteristics of any type of country. That is a mix of many things.
I think, an initial of all, they have actually confidence in castle selves. You know I checked out prayers now with chairman Numeiry
Also, there is a question of nationalism. Friend know, nationalism to us is basic.
Q. Is over there a climb in Egyptian nationalism? Mr. Heykal was suggesting the other night that there to be a climb in Egyptian as dis tinguished from Arab na tionalism after her own nation came under attack.
A. Prior to '67 it to be Arab nationalism. After '67 it to be Egyptian and Arab nationwide ism. You understand we to be dis cussing the inquiry of Is raeli evacuation that Sinai, without addressing the trouble of Jerusalem and also the western bank, nobody agreed around that. This remained in the main Committee. The
Q. Supposing then that this air battle spreads, and goes come industries and also so on. Are you prepared at the time come accept direct air sup port from the Soviet Union or flyers from various other coun tries?
A. Well, this is a delicate question. I need to think about that, but also I have to say something: If this air raids reach the commercial centers, this will not just be the industrial centers that Egypt; it will also be the in dustrial centers that Israel. We room studying what hap pened yesterday and also we have to involved a decision.
Q. Do you expropriate the Is raeli official explanation that they made a technological error, execute you believe they wereaiming at some other place and also got communities con fused?
Israeli Explanation Questioned
A. Girlfriend know, I sent my military secretary come the fac tory the was hit and also I have actually a report native him. There to be no armed forces quarters near this factory, but the timing of the raid was chosen simply at the transforming of the work shifts. The air raid took place 5 minutes prior to the come of the train that was bringing the brand-new shift. Around 2,000 employees were top top their way to change the old shift. So i think the object of the Is raelis was to offer us a les son, come teach us, together it was stated to you by Mrs. Meir.
Q. Have actually the reforms of your economy and culture come close to fulfilling her expectations?
A. You know we have a big problem: The increase of one million civilization every year. But we have actually done a lot throughout the critical 17 years. However after what occurred in 1967, we are really concen trating all our initiatives on defense.
Q. What are you doing about the birth‐control prob lem?
A. We have a birth‐control committee and also we try by giving, not by lectures. We have facilities, however to me, education is the main thing. You know, since who really conducts family arrangement ning: native what i see, it is the education people. Castle really have actually family‐planning. Those who have high income, have actually family‐planning. Those who have actually low earnings don't have family‐planning. For this reason what is the difference be tween both of them? The distinction is education.
Q. As you know, we now have a trouble in the United says with dope, particu larly amongst the young. You have actually a lengthy experience with drug seeks in this part of the world. Execute you have anything you want to say on this subject?
A. Friend know, the prob lem below was not v the youth. But we made a law after the change to offer life imprisonment for those who trade in hashish. As a result of that, ns cannot say the there was no hashish, however the price that hashish was very high and also it was no pos sible for everyone to get hashish. Ns think now the per centage of individuals is decreas ing come a great extent. We space fighting the smugglers by having actually patrols almost everywhere the borders, in the aerodromes, and also the ports.
Q. You have remained in power much longer than any kind of other head of government in a promi nent nation except four: Mao Tse‐tung, Haile Selassie, Gen eralissimo Franco, and also Chi ang Kai‐shek. All of them, in one means or another, have had to border their use of power and their objectives in bespeak to keep or gain back peace and also survive. Yet in the Mid dle East, every little thing seems polarized, and nobody seems to it is in limiting his objectives.
A. I'll tell you something. To some extent, I'm currently dif ferent from before the war of 1967. I have to be different. You know, native the very first be ginning, we were plan everything around defense. Friend were here last ~ above the fourth day that June. You left ~ above Sunday
No plan for Attack
But there was no arrangement for attack versus Israel then. I desire to tell you something: us were not qualified of at tacking Israel by that time since a huge part of our army was in Yemen—about 3 divisions. We thought always that the Israeli prob lem to be really 2 problems.
The an initial one to be the Pales tinian refugees and their right in the homeland. And also this difficulty needs a solu tion. There was another prob lem prior to us come which we were no giving great care. This to be the trouble of
I'll tell girlfriend something more. I can not accept giv ing Israel one customs of Arab territory. I look in ~ the ques tion as a very basic prob lem. If yes, really everyone wants peace, we want peace. Yet what is peace to us? Peace means the finish evacua tion that the inhabited territory, including Jerusalem, and after that the acknowledgment of Israel, the right of Israel come exist, the liberty of navi gation in the Suez Canal.
Then there will certainly be peace. There will certainly be no require of police forces, no need of demili tarized zones, because if we fix the refugee problem, and Israel agrees to borders without expansion, there will be a solution, this trouble went on two decades because there was no solution of the refugees problem, and also if there will be no solution, that will continue for another 20 years. I hope you know me.
Would recognize Israel
I check out all what was stated by Mrs. Meir
She wants me to sit in a chair, it is in polite and also so on, yet what is peace? If lock evacu ate the occupied territories and also solve the refugees prob lem, ns will recognize Israel. There will be no problem. Why to be there no recogni tion? since there to be the trouble of the refugees. If the trouble of the refugees continues, nobody will recog nize Israel.
Q. This is amazing be reason one of your colleagues stated the trouble for Egypt is the Israeli state, we don't mental a Jewish homeland, however a Jewish state is intolerable.
A. You know, the is best to part extent. What ns say, really, is that there will be a state which has actually Jews, Mos lems, Christians, due to the fact that who were expelled out of Israel? The Christians and also the Mos lems. Once the refugees re turn, it will be, really, no a fanatic state together it is now— because they space speaking about Judaism and also the state that Judaism. Us don't speak the state that Islam.
O. Has actually there been any con tact between you and also Presi dent Nixon during this 30‐day duration before his decision ~ above the planes?
A—You know, we have actually no ideas of getting in contact. Us had faith in the brand-new regime and we were told they would be yes, really even‐handed, yet what happened was the they to be repeating the indigenous of Abba Eban. The American aide mémoire— check out it and also see what Abba Eban said—the aide mémoire having actually phrases, finish phrases, indigenous Eban. Girlfriend know, the Rusk eight point out of 1968 ~ above the Middle east were actually much better than the Rogers 10 points.
Q.—Would you go over two points, one the regulate by Israel that the entirety tech nology that the. Pentagon? were you implying in any way that this had been acquired by improper means or that the U. S. Governmen thad offered them this technology?
Israel's tools Discussed
A.—The United states Gov ernment has provided them this technology. You understand that only two countries have this technology, the unified States and also the Soviet Union, and to some degree France. Once they attack us, for instance, castle have digital jamming versus our radar. Climate our radar
Q.—You room telling me miscellaneous that ns didn't know. Ns didn't recognize that they had actually all that.
A.—Yes, they have all that. They have actually long‐range air planes. All their airplanes room long‐range. We have a couple of airplanes, bombers, that room long‐range.
Q. Why execute you suppose that Johnson offered the Israelis planes at the end of his advertisement ministration?”
A. It confused me really. Well, “I will tell you frankly. Native the beginning, prior to the war, Johnson tried come con trol united state He gave us‐ultima tums and he sent, i think, the Under Secretary that State and he stated that castle must have the right to see the in dustry, to check out reactors and also so forth.
And once we refused he claimed they would give Israel arms and so on and that if we assaulted them around that v propaganda, climate they would provide them more. “Sud denly we attacked him and also then they quit their aid. Weùsed to have aid in wheat, about $60‐million. And also we to be at the time without any type of wheat reserves, simply 10 job or so. So we turned come the Soviet Union and we called them that if they don't send us wheat in 10 days us would confront a very huge prob 1em;without bread. And they sent out us your ships the were top top their way from Canada and also Australia. That method we were able to deal with this prob lem. We challenged a really com plicated situation.
Then we acquired a tape record ing on the head the the C.I.A. Here, speaking, around inten tions the the unified States against the regime, us ar rest him due to the fact that he to be dealing” through an Egyptian, a newspaperman. The United says was do the efforts by all means to eliminate us. The is why it sustained Israel.
Coming ago to the ques tion that cease‐fire, Abba Eban stated that as soon as he went to the United states they said him the if Israel were effective
But we could not expropriate a cease‐fire alone since this is the objective of the Is raelis. They want to adjust all these inhabited territo ries. Castle are structure settle ments in Sharm El Sheik and also in the Sinai. The is what they want. A stop fire to construct settlements for expansion.
Q. Your proposition, then, is accept of the defense Council resolution, both sides of it? Second, withdrawal from every territory?
A. There deserve to be some rec tifications. However when ns say rectifications, I median rectifi cations. What is the definition of rectification? together I under was standing it, there is a village, part of that in Jordan and part of the in Israel, they deserve to agree, this component will walk to Israel. In an additional village, a component will go to Jordan.
So the Jordanians offer some land and get part land. Once there is a village in one place and also the land they use is another place, they can agree about it. That's what I know by recti fication. The Israelis, once they speak about rectifica tion, they average that they have to occupy big amounts that territory.
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Q.: No, they are talking about something fairly dif ferent. Over there is no doubt around that.